Main Street Monday — Fountainhead Commercial Capital Snags $23 Million Series A Funding

May 23, 2016

By Bob Coleman
Editor, Main Street Monday

fountainheadcommercialcapitalFountainhead Commercial Capital secures $23 Million for SBA 504 lending.

Alternative asset manager Magnetar Capital, through its affiliated funds, invested $23 million in a Series A round of financing, joining an affiliate of 20 Gates Management, an asset management firm based in New York, as the first two institutional investors in Fountainhead.

Episode 19 — Chris Hurn, CEO and Founder, Fountainhead Commercial Capital

ChrisHurn012915Bob Coleman: “Commercial real estate ownership is an important wealth creation strategy and we fully believe every healthy small business in America should consider it,” says Chris Hurn, founder of Fountainhead Commercial Capital. Chris, you’re an expert on financing Main Street dreams, but the big news today is you yourself are being financed. You’re getting an investment of $23 million. Tell me about that.

Chris Hurn: Yeah, Bob, thanks for having me by the way. That was big news. We actually announced a couple of weeks ago Magnetar Capital, a large hedge fund based actually outside Chicago, we deal with folks up in New York. But they basically invested $23 million of a series A in our company and we will be able to lever that capital a good eight to ten times on an annual basis to do small business loans, so that’s going to translate well with us focusing predominantly on SBA 504. That means we’ll probably be able to do about $300 million or so in small business loans as a result of that investment.

We actually had a seed investment when we first started about 16 months ago that was another group called 20 Gates Management which is an asset manager out of New York that also invested in us, so we feel we’ve got a couple of great partners and we’re hitting the ground running with lots of powder and are excited to do this. Obviously, this allows us to go nationwide which is something we’ve wanted to do since we started Fountainhead and have been limited to some extent. We launched with the minimal viable product which meant 504 loans in only a few states initially, but we’ve been working real hard to bring this to market and, I guess, better late than never.

Bob Coleman: Chris, that’s going to set the stage for you to become one of the largest, if not the largest, 504 lender in the country.

Chris Hurn: That’s exactly our goal, that’s what we’ve stated from day one. Yeah, we want to be the leading 504 lender in the country, no question. And that’s just 504s for now, we’ll actually be able to do low loan-to-value conventional loans as well and I may have a few other things up my sleeve that I’m not quite ready to announce just yet, but things are coming. It’s going to be very exciting.

Bob Coleman: Chris, why did you pick the 504 product as the flagship product that you offer?

Chris Hurn: Well, I’ve become known in the industry for doing this. I’ve probably been doing this now for 18, 19 years. Most people know me as synonymous with the program, written the only book on it, I’ve testified before Congress a few times. I’ve done billions of production on this product, started another company that was a specialist in this space as well as my own here with Fountainhead. It’s still one of those products that suffers from a little bit of an identity crisis unfortunately.

I often have called it the best kept secret in commercial financing. I think it’s the product that wins nine times out of ten when all available products are identified and put in front of a small business borrower who’s wanting to buy their owner occupied commercial real estate. I’m a big believer in niches as you know, we’ve talked about that many times. I’d rather be the dominant leading player in this space than be a generalist and try to do everything for all people. I think that’s a strategy that leads to failure in many cases if not mediocrity, so that’s not our modus operandi. We want to be the best at SBA 504s, we want to really carry the flag and continue to advocate for this product throughout the entrepreneurial communities.

Bob Coleman: Riches in niches, absolutely.

Chris Hurn: Yeah, yeah, I’ve been known to say that a few times.

Bob Coleman: But I think I stole that from you.

Chris Hurn: You might have.

Bob Coleman: By the way, I love the date of your press release, May 4th, which of course is 5/04, so fortuitous timing.

Chris Hurn: Yeah, it took a lot of patience – I’m not exactly somebody who’s known for his patience. It took a lot for me to hold back and release it on that day, but I thought that was appropriate. I coined May 4th as 504 day more than a decade ago and for years I’ve done a lot of special things on that day and I think we did something pretty special for the industry on that day this year as well.

Bob Coleman: Chris, this is round two for you in terms of a startup on a 504 company. Tell me about that process. You got one entity up and running, now you’re doing it all over again. Easier the second time around?

Chris Hurn: Well, in some ways easier, in other ways more difficult. As everybody who’s going to listen to this knows, the banking industry — it was very heavily regulated since time memoriam. Now it’s even more so over the last five, six years, so in that way it was a little more difficult I think. I’ve certainly said I don’t, unfortunately, think bankers are really running their banks these days. Unfortunately, regulators are running the banks and bankers are just trying to run their banks to comply with more onerous regulations, it seems like by the day, so that becomes difficult.

Having said that, having done it before and having been the leading non-bank lender in the 504 space once, you don’t really want to start at the top of the first inning, to use a baseball analogy, knowing you’ve already played a full game. You’d rather go in at the bottom of the sixth if possible, so that was my insight and that’s what we’ve been trying to do from day one. That does probably present more problems and more hurdles when you have a pretty grand vision and you’ve already executed it once. And now you’re trying to do it again and be even more grander and bigger the second time around, so it hasn’t been easy as you probably know, but here we stand and we’re poised for some great things going forward. We’re excited and I have a great team and we’re having a great time. We’ve got some great referral sources that we work with almost on a daily basis and we’ve got great clients.

I think our timing’s good with refi that’s probably going to be announced next week. It’s going to be back online come June. I think our timing is very appropriate and if, God-forbid, we run into another economic swing, I think we’ll also be well-positioned when the folks that we compete against move to the sidelines again.

Bob Coleman: Well, you certainly brought up a lot that I wanted to get into. First of all, let’s talk about the 504 refinance.

Chris Hurn: Sure.

Bob Coleman: What is that about and how is that going to impact your company? I’m a big Main Street guy, how important is that for Main Street?

Chris Hurn: Well, first of all, I’m not one of these folks – there’s been a number of people in the industry who think that this is going to be the silver bullet to fix the 504 industry or something. I’m not saying that – I don’t think it’s going to do that and, frankly, even if it launches next month which is when I expect it to, we’ve only got what, four or five months left in this fiscal year? The impact on the overall volume in this fiscal year is going to be fairly minimal. I’m thinking 10, 15 percent boost for this fiscal year we’re currently in. Next year I think it could be as high as 30 percent of an increase in volume and a lot of this is going to be directed toward the 10-year maturing commercial mortgages that were made in ’06, ’07 when things were coming up to the bubble.

So those things need to get refinanced, not all of them are going to be eligible, of course, not all of them are owner-occupied properties. But there’s a disproportionate amount, this so called “wall of maturities” that’s coming, so I think it’ll be helpful. Certainly if you’re a Main Street business owner who years ago decided to get a conventional commercial loan with your community bank and you scrambled to come up with 20, 25, 30 percent as your down payment and now you’re made aware of the SBA 504 loan, you’ll be able to recoup a lot of that embedded equity.

Now, I believe, the agency’s going require you to use the excess capital for business purposes, but that’s relatively easy to do to identify some of it as business proceeds, so I think it’ll be a little bit of a stimulus for Main Street businesses. Certainly they’ll be able to lock in longer term, below market interest rates, get a better amortization which will unlock some more cash flow, so I think the net effect is going to be a positive and certainly it’s going to help the industry whether it’s CDCs who have just been treading water a lot, at least in the 504 space. A lot of people feel the secondary market premiums from 7(a)’s — that that has pulled some deals that should have otherwise gone 504 into 7(a). I think this may slightly reverse that a little bit.

We can talk about some of the stuff that’s coming up later this month as it relates to 7(a) secondary market premiums by the way, but overall I think it’s a net positive and certainly I think it corrects something that’s bothered me for a long time. I’ve been very vocal about it for well over a decade which is one program that has always allowed refinances while the other, that fundamentally most of its volume deals with commercial real estate, has never been able to do it other than that 13-month period after the recession…until now.

Bob Coleman: Let’s get into a policy wonkish discussion.

Chris Hurn: Okay.

Bob Coleman: But I think it’s important that we realize that this is a zero subsidy program.

Chris Hurn: Right, exactly.

Bob Coleman: Tell me what that means and how important do you believe that the industry should support a zero subsidy 504 loan product?

Chris Hurn: Well, what it means is it’s budget neutral. In effect, the fees that the participating lenders — so the 50 basis point SBA fee on the first mortgage as well as the ongoing annual borrower fees — all of those fees allow it to be self-sustaining. In other words, think of it like an insurance pool and so projected future losses are to be offset against that pool, okay. So there’s few programs as you know, Bob, Federal programs that the government’s involved with whereby it’s really a public private partnership and it actually is neutral in terms of the U.S. budget. The real dirty little secret here is I’m pretty sure there’s been budget surpluses from the program for many, many years.

Now I don’t know how we get access to that. I supposed that would be the mother of all FOIA requests, but for the three or four-year period during the recession and then shortly thereafter when the losses were the most, this program has basically operated at a zero subsidy and I think it’s vital to continue to support that going forward. The problem when you’re okay with a subsidy is it’s a handout. You’re effectively dependent on somebody and God knows Congress changes its mind pretty regularly and I would rather be independent of that to some extent or as independent as possible than be dependent on the political whims of Washington.

So I think it’s critical to keep zero subsidy as long as possible for both programs actually because the same thing impacts 7(a) as well. Now the 7(a) has only been unsubsidized for X number of years, but I think it’s critical that when you’re dealing with private companies, Main Street businesses, you’re taking the full faith and credit of the U.S. government and you’re guarantying a portion of these loans. I think if you can offset as much of the perceived costs of those programs as possible, I think you will assure the longevity of those programs, but when you start accepting subsidies and being gleeful about subsidies that you’re getting and whacky things like that, I think you’re setting yourself up for a big failure.

Bob Coleman: Well said, well said. Fountainhead, is it a FinTech lender? What is a FinTech lender? Are you a FinTech lender?

Chris Hurn: Well, if you asked me that question 60 days ago I might have said yes, but in the last 30 days, my goodness, I think FinTech may have jumped the shark.

Bob Coleman: Yeah, yeah.

Chris Hurn: It’s a financial technology company. Look, I think we definitely are tech-enabled in a way that I think very few, if any, other lenders in our space are right now. We’ve spent a lot of time and energy over the last 16 months customizing our loan software to such a point where we literally have to input a couple of little things and we press a button and we can spit out a preapproval letter within a couple of minutes. The same thing with a commitment letter, the same thing with third-party report engagement letters, closing letters, the credit presentation, it automatically replicates all the different fields and what not. And that’s something that allows us to be much quicker than anybody else, to be frankly a lot like a FinTech lender in terms of some of the peer-to-peer lenders, the online marketplace lenders, whatever they call themselves these days.

It’s tough to keep track of it by the way, Bob, as you know. It seems to change every couple of weeks, but I think that’s important. It’s not unusual for people in our space to take weeks to approve a loan. We literally are approving loans in hours these days, million dollar, multimillion dollar commercial real estate loans in hours. I think that’s a huge strategic advantage of ours and it will be increasingly so going forward, but are we a FinTech? I don’t know, I don’t know, Bob. I’m not sure if I want to be a FinTech after I saw what’s happened to some of the CEOs in FinTech companies here recently, but Wall Street seems to be excited about it.

Maybe it was a bit of a flavor of the day for a few months or for a few couple of years here, but I don’t think it’s sustainable. The bottom-line is I don’t think it’s sustainable for some of their business models to charge some of the exorbitant rates that they’re charging, to accept the exorbitant default rates that they’re willing to accept. A lot of those FinTech companies are built by technologists with great algorithms or at least they claim they’re great algorithms. Very few of them actually have real lenders involved, people that have been through credit cycles before, so that’s always been my cynicism about some of those guys.

Having said that, if you can use technology in an industry like banking to accelerate the process then you’re going to stand out because let’s face it most of the folks that we’re running up against are still dinosaur-like and they’re struggling. They’re struggling with compliance, they’re struggling with new technology, they’re struggling with making sure that the new software fits in with the old core processors and all these different things. Even my old company, we used to use multiple spreadsheets. The problem with using multiple spreadsheets is you don’t have one centralized location for the spreadsheets and eventually human error creeps in not to mention all the time and energy it takes to constantly update those things. There’s a better way and I feel we’ve found it and I think it’s a big core advantage of ours.

Bob Coleman: Chris, one of the criticisms of FinTech is you mentioned it, exorbitant fees, high APRs. You take complex transactions, construction lending, bridge loans. How do you do that and how is your fee structure? Are you fair to Main Street?

Chris Hurn: I think we’re very fair to Main Street. We wouldn’t be able to compete on a daily basis if we weren’t. We’re not trying to be like some of the FinTech guys, some of the exorbitant fees, rate structures they’ve got. If we tried to do that we would never do a loan. 504 loans, they’re competitive. A lot of borrowers are choosing to go 504 instead of conventional because they can utilize the inherent structure of it. It’s more advantageous for their business for growth, for producing more jobs. It’s just exactly what the program is for. It’s meant to be an economic driver and I think it certainly is.

So no, our rates are like bank rates, our fees are like bank fees. There’s not much else to it. I just think it’s better that having started, what was it, almost 15 years ago in my old company, it was as a non-bank lender. Before it was sexy to be a non-bank lender, I guess, and now we’re doing it again. I think it’s even more advantageous for us to do it outside of a banking structure now because of some of the inherent limitations and what not that are really causing a lot of hurdles for some of the folks that we might compete against.

Bob Coleman: Chris, you mentioned the secondary market for 7(a) loans which is doing very well. 504 hasn’t really come back to levels it was at before the recession. Why is that and what is your strategy to attempt to fill that void?

Chris Hurn: Well, let’s change that, Bob. That’s one of the things I was hoping we would talk about a little bit today. Look, whether we like it or not or agree with it or not, to buy a government guaranty on a 7(a) loan is very attractive to certain investors out there. They’ve been paying record setting premiums over the last couple of years for that. I think the agency, perhaps responsibly, is looking into that in terms of where they start to share in some of those premiums and I think they may lower that some. I think that makes a lot of sense, but in terms of 504s, the 504 secondary market was decimated after the recession.

The biggest player has shrunk to a tenth of its former size on an annual basis. Another player came in to help fill the void and yet they really haven’t managed to do more than $20, $30 million a year in first liens. We actually with this call today, I let a few people know about it yesterday by email, but we actually have a nationwide program now officially. Our FastTrack 504 program which we launched about a year ago, initially was only in so many states. First it was in 12 states and then it went to 15 and then 18. Well, now we’re national. We have a program, we pay up to four points on our first mortgages. We have a five-year fixed product, we have a seven-year fixed product, very competitive. Use of proceeds are exactly what you said before, acquisition, renovation, ground up and soon refinancing.

So, I think, we certainly have the capital, we certainly have the capacity, we certainly have the specialized knowledge, the fast underwriting to really try to help fill that void in the secondary market and really be a channel, an outsource partner with a lot of banks and credit unions and other non-bank lenders out there to really help a lot more small business owners. That’s really what gets our juices flowing. Bob, we really enjoy helping Main Street businesses create wealth with commercial real estate ownership. I think one of the many ways to do that is our new national secondary market program.

Bob Coleman: Well, good for you. By the way, I do want to take exception to what you said about the SBA 7(a) secondary market. I disagree vehemently with what they’re talking about in terms of reducing the split from 110 to possibly 108, 106. All that does is — that’s taxing small businesses, small community banks. The Wall Street banks don’t need a secondary market, they’re holding onto their product and it’s the small community banks that are paying the tax above 110. They’re also paying the annual servicing fee and it’s unfair. It’s unfair for what the agency is or what Congress is looking at, but you and I –

Chris Hurn: No, I can see that, but remember the unfairness starts with the small business borrower effectively paying – in order to get those secondary market premiums that high — it starts with the premise that you should take a floating rate on a fixed asset like commercial real estate and so it’s actually on the backs of small businesses which is the issue that I have. But you’re correct, no question, a small community bank, if they’re selling the guaranty versus a too big to fail bank that doesn’t need to sell the guaranty, they’ve only got it there for belt and suspenders. Yeah, I can see your perspective and then I don’t entirely disagree with it. I still think the agency needs to spend a little more time understanding that about a third of the 7(a) volume year-over-year is relatively large real estate only transactions, mostly floating rate that should have otherwise have been 504s.

I think that’s something that’s a problem and I’ve brought this up as far back as 2004 in a Wall Street Journal article many years ago. Somebody criticized me saying if they change that and make only those real estate deals 504-eligible, that’s taking choice away from the small business owners or somehow it’s limiting choice. And I would say actually it’s already occurring on a daily basis, limiting the choices when 504’s not one of the options that’s presented to the small business borrower.

Bob Coleman: Well, and obviously I respect your position. I disagree with you. I think real estate should be part of the 7(a) program. A lot of lenders do do it on a fixed rate basis also, so I –

Chris Hurn: Well, the only ones that do – let’s remember, Bob, the only ones that do it on a fixed rate basis predominantly are the Too Big To Fail guys who are really portfolioing those 7(a)’s. So again, the community banks can’t do 25-year fixed rate 7(a)’s, they just can’t do it.

Bob Coleman: Yeah.

Chris Hurn: The regulators will never let them do it.

Bob Coleman: But also they are getting capital to Main Street, so I disagree. I don’t say that the fees are being paid by Main Street. They’re not paying those secondary market fees. Anyway, let’s move on. Tell me about your team. Now that you’ve got this funding are you going to start employing people? Are you going to hire people in all 50 states? Chris, at Fountainhead –

Chris Hurn: You mean I don’t have to clean up every night and then wash the dishes and then take the trash out, I can hire people now?

Bob Coleman: I guess a better question is tell me about the transformation. What’s Fountainhead going to look like in the future?

Chris Hurn: We’re probably going to hire somewhere between 8 and 15 people over the next 18 to 24 months. A lot of that will be on the credit side, some of it’ll be in business development, a little bit of administration and marketing, but we can do the levels of fundings with a relatively lean staff. We don’t need to have 40, 50, hundreds of people, something like that, but we will be hiring some folks here coming up. We’re still in the digestion phase of this, Bob, to be honest with you. So we’re probably not going to do anything immediately, but I would expect that you’re going to start seeing some announcements out of us by the end of the summer as we move forward.

There’s a lot of good people out there. We’re very close to a lot of people. We know they want to come work for us. We know they’re a little frustrated in some of the places that they’re at now and we would love to put together a great team. I pride myself on having done that in the past and having a great corporate culture. We certainly have that here at Fountainhead. We’re not going to do anything that would disrupt that. But we work really hard, we enjoy ourselves, we spend more time together, all of us do, frankly, during the business hours than we probably do with our loved ones, so you better enjoy the people you work with and I fully believe that. You’re going to see a lot of that happening here shortly with us.

Bob Coleman: Chris, we are at an all-time low in terms of raw numbers of loan performance. All throughout the industries small business loans are performing very well, but everyone’s concerned about the future, so you mentioned earlier that you want to position yourself for the next downturn. Elaborate on that a little bit more. How are you going to manage through the next downturn?

Chris Hurn: Well, I managed through the last downturn with more than double-digit percentage increases in growth year-over-year from ’08 through 2012. So I’ve done it before, I think we can do it again. What happens is when you run into a financial and real estate recession which is what we had obviously – and there’s bank failures and what not. A lot of the banks go to the sidelines understandably so, and so when that happens there are still good quality deals to be done out there. I think the way to answer this question, Bob, is to understand fundamentally that the typical entrepreneur, the typical owner of a small to midsized company is a bit contrarian in nature to begin with. So when the recession hits if they’ve been leasing their space for seven, eight years they may view it as a buying opportunity to go out and buy real estate at a discount, for instance.

Often times when the economy tanks, the Fed and other policymakers are going to do what they can to make lending much more accommodating, at least make interest rates a lot more accommodating. We’re still living with some of that, frankly, from the last recession where we still have this very low interest rate environment. Again, often times in situations like that, even right now, you can own far cheaper on a monthly basis than you can continue renting in a lot of places, so that’s what I mean by positioning ourselves. I think it’s a little bit of a thinning of the herd. I think a lot of people will go to the sidelines that we would otherwise compete against.

We don’t plan to go anywhere. We have a very sound business model. We’re fairly lean, we’re very focused, very specialized in what we do. Could we pull back in certain property types that we otherwise would finance? That may happen a little bit, that always happens, but no, I don’t anticipate it unless it’s some cataclysmic economic recession more so even than we had last time, I don’t anticipate that happening. I think we’re going to be okay. I think we’re going to be fine and by the way I’m not predicting that that’s happening. I think we’re in this very odd place right now where there wasn’t this massive recovery like you see after a lot of recessions. I think everybody’s just treading water a little bit.

Some of it is because the Fed has been so accommodating with interest rates. I can’t imagine – could you imagine if suddenly the Fed said, okay, starting right after the election in November we’re going to start raising interest rates 25 basis points every six weeks. I don’t know how – that would be such a shock to our economy right now because people have gotten so used to such lower interest rates. I can’t see them doing that. So we may be in this period of very, very low interest rates. I read somewhere that the British Empire back in the last 1800s had a 50, 60-year period of time where they had these very, very low interest rates and everybody kept saying oh, eventually they’ve got to raise the rates and it just didn’t happen.

Now maybe that’s why we had Victorian Britain when there was massive expansion and obviously a lot of things were pretty positive about it. It ushered in the industrial age and what not, so I think we’re living in some very, very interesting, challenging times. You can stick your head in the sand and hope for the best and pray that things change, or you can get out there and get into the arena and battle and try to create your own destiny and that’s what we’re trying to do.

Bob Coleman: I love it, you took my history references. I’m the historian, but good for you. By the way, you want to talk history, when I started banking in December 1980 prime rate hit 21.5 percent, so it’s happened in my lifetime. I’m certainly not predicting prime’s going to go there again, but the one constant –

Chris Hurn: I was doing 7(a)’s in the mid-90s in the 12 percent range, so yeah, I’ve done it, too.

Bob Coleman: It’s happened. Real quick, let’s wrap up with Main Street. What do you see as the main challenges of Main Street? Chris, I know you’re a big technology fan and you follow the trends and I always like to put up that picture of Pope Francis in 2013 is addressing the Vatican Square and everyone has a cell phone, there’s iPads and everyone’s holding it up taking pictures of him. Only eight years before in 2005 Pope Benedict is addressing from the same spot at the same vantage point, there’s only one cell phone. The acceleration of technology of change is dramatic. How do you feel Main Street is coping with that? We’re reading about $15 living wages, more and more regulation. You’re making 20-year, 25-year loans. How do you factor in the change in your underwriting and how you feel Main Street is addressing these issues?

Chris Hurn: Well, I think I’m more concerned right now that the pace of new business formations is as low as it is.

Bob Coleman: Interesting.

Chris Hurn: I think we’re almost at a – it’d be interesting to check into this metric, but I almost feel as a culture we’re near an all-time high about admiration for the entrepreneur, okay, so it’s not uncommon for families to gather and watch Shark Tank together. We do that in my family. Tons and tons of entrepreneurship programs at colleges and business schools around the country these days yet at the same time new business formation doesn’t seem to be matching that level of buzz and that’s what concerns me a bit.

A number of the projects that we’ve done in the last 12 months have been e-commerce warehouses, warehouse space. I think you’re going to see more of that, but in terms of how are the new technologies affecting Main Street businesses. Obviously, there’s going to be some churn, right, creative destructionism. It’s a fundamental tenant of capitalistic economics. It’s Friedrich Hayek, I think, if I’m not mistaken who coined that and so just like, I guess, evolutionary businesses have to be adaptable, they have to change when change comes along. We changed a number of times, in my old company. We’ve already changed a number of times.

Bob Coleman: Right.

Chris Hurn: In Fountainhead since we started. The successful entrepreneurs and business owners don’t draw a line in the sand and say this is who we are and this is all we’re going to do and this is all we’re ever going to do and survive. You’ve got to evolve. I imagine there’s a buggy whip manufacturer somewhere, Bob, but I would venture to say their revenues and profits are not nearly what they were a century ago.

Bob Coleman: Right.

Chris Hurn: So, I don’t know, I think all this technology in many ways it’s paradoxical, right? In many ways it allows us to be more connected and yet we feel more disconnected, right. There’s a lot of pluses to it, there are a lot of negatives to it. I hope we’re not headed to that place in the Pixar movie “WALL-E” where we’re floating on beds and eating our Doritos and communicating. We’re gaining more and more weight because we never actually get off the floating bed to walk around and exercise, but I don’t know, maybe that’s where we’re headed. You throw me these huge curveballs at the end of this.

Bob Coleman: Well, of course, that’s my job.

Chris Hurn: I don’t know. I guess the answer I would say is I continue to try and do my junior anthropologist job and watch and take what works for us, what can improve things and apply them, try not to get too caught up in technology. God knows we have that in our family with my kids. They’re both teenagers and we deal with that on a regular basis. I’m one of those “bad” parents that limits access to electronic devices quite regularly and I hear about it or at least I used to hear about it all the time. Now they don’t try to negotiate away some of those issues anymore, but it’s just again, we live in very interesting, challenging times, things are changing. Five years from now, Bob, we’re going to have a call like this and we’ll be talking about all the driverless cars that are out there circling, I suspect.

Bob Coleman: Right.

Chris Hurn: And how Uber no longer has contract workers, a big deal in the mid-2010s and ‘15s, and now they just have driverless cars or something like that Arnold Schwarzenegger movie, “The 6th Day.”

Bob Coleman: Very good. Chris Hurn, congratulations on your funding.

Chris Hurn: Thank you.

Bob Coleman: That’s an amazing – you and I have been friends for a number of years, so I’ve watched you and I’ve watched your career. This is a huge, huge deal for you for the industry and for Main Street. Congratulations, Chris.

Chris Hurn: Thank you, Bob. I sincerely appreciate it and yeah, we want to do great things, so bring it on. I hope I hear from a lot of people and we want to really – our mission is always to help Main Street businesses create wealth for themselves. It’s no different than Bill Gates wanting a desktop in every house. We want all healthy businesses to own their property, so that’s our mission. That’s what we’re trying to do.

Bob Coleman: Chris Hurn, founder, CEO of Fountainhead Commercial Capital.